Curse

AtomicMew · Feb 20, 2010, 06:09 PM // 18:09

I think you can do better than MW, since it eats up your prep slot. As I said earlier, you can do the same thing with zealous vow. But how about prepared shot... or scavenger's focus?

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Special:Pv...o=Submit+Query

The upside is that you get to add prep damage.

Redvex · Feb 20, 2010, 07:35 PM // 19:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by trcvrs

I think you can do better than MW, since it eats up your prep slot. As I said earlier, you can do the same thing with zealous vow. But how about prepared shot... or scavenger's focus?

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Special:Pv...o=Submit+Query

The upside is that you get to add prep damage.

I try every build with prep shot, scaravenger etc etc but i prefer marksman wager during dominations.

Khomet Si Netjer · Feb 20, 2010, 11:21 PM // 23:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by trcvrs

Except you answered a question no one was asking. obviously, with a huge amount of buffs obviously # hits is the most important factor.

well i think that if anyone is considering taking Barrage as the elite then it's safe to assume that he is wanting to hit multiple targets? So asking for a comparison of Barrage vs. Glass Arrows demands that the multiple hits be taken into consideration.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

That's a very tall order.

You should supply the GA build, so that I can't be accused of picking an inferior variant of GA to make Barrage look better.

We also have to address the modeling problems created by Scan. We need an estimate for how often your targets are dying to properly account for the aftercast on Scan and the fact that Scan may not be recharged when you change to a new target. When comparing two builds that both use Scan, I'm willing to assume away those issues as affecting both builds nearly equally. I can't do that here, and any assumption I make is going to be arbitrary and open to criticism. Suggestions?

Also, I'm not going to bother with H+H. I'm going to assume Orders, GDW, and EBSoH because those are reflective what situations that I might actualyl care about.

It's not likely I'll have time to get to something like this for several days.

...

I believe you are correct in principle. But there's a major hitch. And that hitch is named Asuran Scan. Without Scan, every extra arrow from Barrage is going to hit for base+~77. (Using the same assumptions from my earlier post.) With the added bonus from Scan, it's not immediately clear to me that there is simply no other skill or combination of skills that can match a single extra arrow from Barrage. It may require 2 extra arrows from Barrage to beat certain possibilities. Travrsc is reasonable in asking for a mathematical comparison.

Heh that is a lot of math to worry about, but I think when you run the numbers you will find that glass arrows and any other build with a +damage prep will come out better against single targets than barrage, but barrage will almost always come out on top if you can hit multiple targets consistently. Certainly it will win the energy efficiency contest, the damage per energy ratio of barrage is unmatched by anything except maybe Hundred Blades, Whirlwind Attack, etc.

Asuran Scan is a special kind of buff because it's not really a buff at all, it does not affect you... it affects your target. And because it only affects one target it will favor builds that attack that one target. Any build with Asuran Scan in it is really oriented around spiking one target down as opposed to damaging many. I'd say if you are going to carry barrage then you need to have buffs that would help you against any and all potential targets, not just one. That means you should favor GDW, EBSOH, Brutal Weapon, Conjure X, Order of Pain, OotV, I Am The Strongest, Favorable Winds, Winnowing rather than single-target skills like Asuran Scan and Barbs.

It all comes down to whether you want to attack one target or attack many. PvE is full of big mobs so I tend to favor attacking many.

Amy Awien · Feb 20, 2010, 11:44 PM // 23:44

Actually, PvE is not full of big mobs, and when there are big mobs they tend to have a mix of ranged and melee types.

It depends on the area where you're going and what to expect there.

AtomicMew · Feb 21, 2010, 09:26 AM // 09:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

well i think that if anyone is considering taking Barrage as the elite then it's safe to assume that he is wanting to hit multiple targets? So asking for a comparison of Barrage vs. Glass Arrows demands that the multiple hits be taken into consideration.

Re-read my question. I asked:

"I'm still waiting for a side by side comparison of H/H glass arrows build vs. barrage build, how many targets do you need to hit on average for barrage to be better DPS wise?"

Keyword: H/H. You can't assume orders and GDW in H/H.

At any rate, if someone CAN do the dmg calc assuming those buffs, it shouldn't be too much trouble to convert it to H/H dmg calc.

Quote:

Heh that is a lot of math to worry about, but I think when you run the numbers you will find that glass arrows and any other build with a +damage prep will come out better against single targets than barrage, but barrage will almost always come out on top if you can hit multiple targets consistently.

I hate to continue harping, but you're kind of continuing to state the obvious. No offense. What we want to know is, what is the tipping point? How many targets do you need to be hitting with barrage to out-damage X, Y or Z build?

Tenebrae · Feb 21, 2010, 11:47 AM // 11:47

Keep asking a question solved in page 6 . Also , "wanting" to hit multiple targets doesnt mean its going to happen and like Awien said :
- "Actually, PvE is not full of big mobs, and when there are big mobs they tend to have a mix of ranged and melee types."
I can asure you that even snared they dont stick together ( even less in adj range lol ) and they dont move "in couples" so you can achieve 2 regular hits from Barrage always. I guess some ppl just dont even bother to read ...

Khomet Si Netjer · Feb 22, 2010, 12:10 AM // 00:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by trcvrs

Re-read my question. I asked:

"I'm still waiting for a side by side comparison of H/H glass arrows build vs. barrage build, how many targets do you need to hit on average for barrage to be better DPS wise?"

Keyword: H/H. You can't assume orders and GDW in H/H.

At any rate, if someone CAN do the dmg calc assuming those buffs, it shouldn't be too much trouble to convert it to H/H dmg calc.

Orders is pretty easy to set up on a hero in lots of ways, point taken about GDW though. You're expecting some magic number to account for every possible combination of skills that the players and heroes can possibly take, and that is impossible to do. But for the sake of argument we'll make some assumptions and take a shot at it.

All of these buffs are easily taken on heroes:
Order of Pain or Order of the Vampire (+15)
Favorable Winds (+6)
Winnowing (+4)
Take these on the player:
I Am The Strongest (+20)
Ebon Battle Standard of Honor (+15)

You could take some other buffs on heroes, e.g. Judge's Insight, Brutal Weapon, Splinter Weapon, Paragon anthems, Go For The Eyes, but let's ignore these for now.

Arrows do 15-28 damage, average damage is 22.5 per arrow + 60 damage from the buffs mentioned above.

If we use Glass Arrows @ 15 expertise, we add +20 to each arrow above and beyond all of this, so we have 22.5 + 80 per arrow or 102.5 average. If we use a strong attack skill like Point Blank Shot we get +40 damage at 15 expertise, now we are talking 22.5 + 120 damage. or 142.5 average.

If we use Barrage @ 15 marksmanship we add +20 to each arrow so we also get 22.5 + 80 damage per arrow, or 102.5 average. Each additional hit is another 102.5 average damage, so two hits from barrage is 205 total damage and more if you can hit additional targets.

As you can see, if you can hit more than one target with Barrage then Barrage wins. (205 > 142.5) If you cannot hit more than one target with Barrage then Glass Arrows is going to win. I thought this was pretty clear from the previous post but there it is all laid out for you.

Now you may be asking yourself, what about Asuran Scan? As I have said previously, it is a single-target hex and it will skew things in favor of Glass Arrows, but Barrage will also benefit to some degree. If Asuran Scan is maxed we get 75% more damage on the target, so 102.5 becomes ~180 and 142.5 becomes ~210. This means that Glass Arrows + Point Blank Shot gives ~210 damage. Barrage will give ~180 against the primary target (with asuran scan on it) and 102.5 average damage to additional targets, so ~282.5 total damage if you can hit two. So once again, Barrage wins if #hits >= 2, even if you are using Asuran Scan.

Quote:

I hate to continue harping, but you're kind of continuing to state the obvious. No offense. What we want to know is, what is the tipping point? How many targets do you need to be hitting with barrage to out-damage X, Y or Z build?

I've already said that the tipping point is 2, and the numbers above confirm it. I didn't think numerical analysis was really necessary because to me it is pretty obvious that increasing the number of hits in a given period of time is the way to deal more damage.

If you think you can consistently hit 2 or more targets then Barrage (and even Volley) are going to deliver more total damage than Glass Arrows + attack skill, although Glass Arrows will deliver more damage to one target. If you will not be able to hit more than one then Glass Arrows wins.

Terek Zelta · Feb 22, 2010, 01:59 AM // 01:59

I see a lot of ego-flinging and theorycraft, and a startling absence of practical knowledge (no offense , seriously!), but people like Tenebrae and Redvex, who run their own builds and are less absorbed in the math, make excellent points, and have really good ideas. It's true, some of them don't look good on paper, but in practice, they can definitely work.

Barrage is a love it or hate it skill. I'm not a fan. In my experience, wasting that monk instantly is better than hitting that monk and one or two of his buddies for average-to-above average damage, but Barrage definitely has its place, and definitely has tons of damage potential. The problem is, that potential is rarely realized. So I don't use it.

Marksman's Wager and Prepared Shot are really nice ideas. So is Needling Shot. Needling Shot is probably the best ticket to high DPS. In practice, Redvex has it on the money. They're just really nice, fun skills.

Penetrating and Sundering Attack are still good, they just don't utterly dominate like they used to. They still get good damage output, and they still do their job - that can't be stressed enough. It doesn't matter if you don't get highest numbers on the MoD if the rest of the group doesn't notice. The aftercast sucks, but everyone acts like they got Booned. Heheh.

The bottom line is this: I see that no one's really wrong in this thread. Some people might be off on some things, but a lot of what everyone's said works in its own way. Our individual playstyles just make us narrow-minded. We find something that works for us and think it'll work the best for everyone, when that isn't necessarily the case. True, there are generally accepted optimal builds, but I kill things just as quickly and efficiently with Eviscerate as I do with Dragon Slash, so a lot of it is still relative. Even if I gave you my Eviscerate build, that doesn't mean you'll use it the same way I do, so your results may be worse.

With the tone of the original post, it's hard to have a constructive discussion, or even take this discussion seriously. A better way of putting it would've been, "Rangers may not lead in DPS, but they don't necessarily lag behind other classes either." A well played DPS ranger is just that - a ranger that can lay waste to single targets and still keep an interrupt and a couple other utilities as backup. I've seen people do it and do it well. I'm clearly no expert on rangers, but I can get respectable DPS on mine - and this is coming from someone who mains as a Dragon Slash/Hundred Blades/Endurance Scythe warrior.

Here's my philosophy: I don't care if you're hitting 70 DPS on the MoD to my warrior's 90. If you play well, you're going to drop enemies regardless. My Eviscerate build, for example, gets lower DPS on the MoD than Dragon Slash - much lower - but because of things like how practical and easy to use it is, along with how my teams are always setup, and how I managed my Eviscerate spikes, it ends up being more desirable at times, even in HM.

Guild Wars isn't even hard enough to warrant that kind of powergaming anyway. If I can get away with using Primal Rage in HM on my warrior, I'm sure rangers can get away with being turrets.

I think a lot of players just reach a certain point where they stop worrying about what's optimal and start concerning themselves more with what's most fun, because at the end of the day, a good player is still a good player, even if he's using crap, and I proved that to myself running PVP shock axe, copied verbatim from PVX, in high-end HM. I'm not saying that to brag, I'm just explaining where I'm coming from.

It's all about how you play. Turret rangers aren't dead, they're just no longer supreme DPS overlords.

So! It's perfectly reasonable to make a DPS ranger. Marksman's Wager, Prepared Shot, Glass Arrows, Expert's Dexterity, Burning Arrow - all good. Needling Shot, Zojun's/Point Blank Shot, Penetrating/Sundering Attack, even Sloth Hunter's Shot all work, and there are more, I'm sure. Expert Focus, Read the Wind (still good for use with a vampiric flatbow if you ask me), and others are nice. I've even seen Rapid Fire used to good effect during some HM Zaishen bounties.

It can be done easily, I'm surprised more people don't do it. But maybe not. I don't concern myself so much with powergaming - if it works, use it; if it's fun, use it!

Edit: Forgot a word.

Axel Zinfandel · Feb 22, 2010, 02:20 AM // 02:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Looks very good , little activation times for the buff part and can stand AsuranScan + Skill combo spam pretty well . Shame about IAS but well , you cant have it all .

IAS would actually negatively effect this build a little, at least mathematically. It already has simulated IAS, however.

Quote:

Originally Posted by trcvrs

That looks real good, actually. I wonder though, if you could simply ditch serpent's quickness and cycle sundering>penetrating>power shot?

Also, if you're not going to take SY! R/D with zealous vow seems like it would work better. (Longer upkeep, faster cast).

I don't see why you couldn't, and it certainly seems like a good variation

That might be a better idea for penetrating > sundering > power shot combo someone stated above, that way you can eliminate Wilderness Survival and split a 12-12 between wind prayers and Marksmanship.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redvex

EDIT
I tried you build vanquishing an elona area. It works good, but i prefer an addictional pve slot like pain inverter ebon sin or im the strongest instead of using dwarven stability to mantain SQ.

If you run an Essence of Celerity, the build can technically still work and save you the attribute and skill slots.

AtomicMew · Feb 22, 2010, 04:20 AM // 04:20

Quote:

Orders is pretty easy to set up on a hero in lots of ways, point taken about GDW though. You're expecting some magic number to account for every possible combination of skills that the players and heroes can possibly take, and that is impossible to do. But for the sake of argument we'll make some assumptions and take a shot at it.

The problem with orders is that, in H/H, you can almost assuredly get more damage with another hero. You are in effect, artificially boosting your numbers by taking a subpar hero build. Daesu makes an excellent argument on this point in this thread: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/r...t10425814.html

Quote:

All of these buffs are easily taken on heroes:
Favorable Winds (+6)
Winnowing (+4)
I Am The Strongest (+20)
Ebon Battle Standard of Honor (+15)

IATS doesn't even support your point, since it adds a flat amount of damage, regardless of how fast you make hits. This means your math is wrong on a fundamental level. (Also, it's likely not nearly as good as Asura Scan.)

Also, Favorable Winds... okay, MAYBE. But WINNOWING?!?!??!?! Seriously... just no.

Quote:

If we use Glass Arrows @ 15 expertise, we add +20 to each arrow above and beyond all of this, so we have 22.5 + 80 per arrow or 102.5 average. If we use a strong attack skill like Point Blank Shot we get +40 damage at 15 expertise, now we are talking 22.5 + 120 damage. or 142.5 average.

If we use Barrage @ 15 marksmanship we add +20 to each arrow so we also get 22.5 + 80 damage per arrow, or 102.5 average. Each additional hit is another 102.5 average damage, so two hits from barrage is 205 total damage and more if you can hit additional targets.

Except it's not that simple, not nearly. For example, if you use barrage on recharge, you're attacking a lot slower than auto-attack speed.

Quote:

As you can see, if you can hit more than one target with Barrage then Barrage wins. (205 > 142.5) If you cannot hit more than one target with Barrage then Glass Arrows is going to win. I thought this was pretty clear from the previous post but there it is all laid out for you.

Now you may be asking yourself, what about Asuran Scan? As I have said previously, it is a single-target hex and it will skew things in favor of Glass Arrows, but Barrage will also benefit to some degree. If Asuran Scan is maxed we get 75% more damage on the target, so 102.5 becomes ~180 and 142.5 becomes ~210. This means that Glass Arrows + Point Blank Shot gives ~210 damage. Barrage will give ~180 against the primary target (with asuran scan on it) and 102.5 average damage to additional targets, so ~282.5 total damage if you can hit two. So once again, Barrage wins if #hits >= 2, even if you are using Asuran Scan.

Even by your math, that's wrong. You can't take AS, IATS and EBSoH since we need room for SY!.

Desert Rose · Feb 22, 2010, 12:53 PM // 12:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terek Zelta

Penetrating and Sundering Attack are still good, they just don't utterly dominate like they used to.

Actually, both skills are even stronger than before; read here for more info.

Khomet Si Netjer · Feb 22, 2010, 01:07 PM // 13:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by trcvrs

The problem with orders is that, in H/H, you can almost assuredly get more damage with another hero. You are in effect, artificially boosting your numbers by taking a subpar hero build. Daesu makes an excellent argument on this point in this thread: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/r...t10425814.html

Daesu mentions that UA monks are useful and that he doesn't like orders with only two physicals in the group and that casters are more useful than physicals. I don't see any of these as relevant to the discussion.

Quote:

IATS doesn't even support your point, since it adds a flat amount of damage, regardless of how fast you make hits. This means your math is wrong on a fundamental level. (Also, it's likely not nearly as good as Asura Scan.)

Also, Favorable Winds... okay, MAYBE. But WINNOWING?!?!??!?! Seriously... just no.

I posted numbers for Asuran Scan, perhaps you didn't read them.
IATS is included because we're talking about a DPS ranger and IATS deals a lot of damage for little energy, and it stacks with everything.
Winnowing is just a little bit of extra damage, and it would help your minions too if you had any. If you have a big problem with Winnowing (lol) then leave it out, it won't change the results.

In fact, if you do the math on this, you can calculate the amount of buffs on each arrow necessary for Barrage to exceed the damage output of Glass Arrows + PBS, assuming 2+ hits. If you can't get 2+ hits then Glass Arrows or another +damage prep will win as discussed before.

Arrow = 22.5 average damage
BarrageBonus = 20 (@15 marks)
GlassArrows = 20 (@15 exp)
PBS = 40 (@15 exp)

2 x (Arrow + BarrageBonus + Buff Damage) = Arrow + GlassArrows + PBS +Buff Damage
2Arrow + 2Barrage + 2 Buff Damage = Arrow + GlassArrows + PBS + Buff Damage
Arrow + Buff Damage + 2Barrage = Glass Arrows + PBS
Buff Damage = Glass Arrows + PBS - Arrow - 2Barrage
Buff Damage = 20 + 40 - 22.5 - 2(20)
Buff Damage = 20 - 22.5
Buff Damage = -2.5

In english, it would take buff damage of -2.5 for Glass Arrows + PBS to equal the damage of 2 barrage hits. You can't have buff damage less than 0 so this means that barrage will always do more total damage if you can hit 2 targets with it. This also means that any combination of buffs you choose to bring won't help the case for Glass Arrows since Barrage does more total damage without any additional buffs at all. (again, assuming 2+ hits)

Quote:

Except it's not that simple, not nearly. For example, if you use barrage on recharge, you're attacking a lot slower than auto-attack speed.

Are we talking about the same skill? Barrage has a 1s recharge.

Quote:

Even by your math, that's wrong. You can't take AS, IATS and EBSoH since we need room for SY!.

????

Who mentioned SY? I'm not taking SY, and if you were going for SY you're far better off with a build that can build adrenaline as quickly as possible. This again implies the use of barrage for multiple hits.

On a productive note, if you are assuming the use of SY you should say so before you demand a build comparison.

AtomicMew · Feb 22, 2010, 06:55 PM // 18:55

Do you even read? Seriously, wow.

1) You won't have orders in H/H unless you accept having a subpar team. That point is ENTIRELY relevant. Read Daesu's post.

2) IATS does NOT stack. It's fixed damage. It ONLY synergizes with asura scan, which, if we even considered taking IATS (we don't) would only shift favor for single target spiking, since were not wasting IATS charges on off targets.

3) We assume SY! because we actually read the first post. If you can't accept that, were done here.

Khomet Si Netjer · Feb 22, 2010, 07:41 PM // 19:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by trcvrs

Do you even read? Seriously, wow.

1) You won't have orders in H/H unless you accept having a subpar team. That point is ENTIRELY relevant. Read Daesu's post.

2) IATS does NOT stack. It's fixed damage. It ONLY synergizes with asura scan, which, if we even considered taking IATS (we don't) would only shift favor for single target spiking, since were not wasting IATS charges on off targets.

3) We assume SY! because we actually read the first post. If you can't accept that, were done here.

Seems to me that you are coming up with various ways to deny what is clearly shown by the numbers. I'm not telling anyone what to use, I'm simply providing a comparison (as you requested) and all you can do is complain that that the comparison uses some skill you don't like or did not use some skill that you are really fond of.

1) Orders is standard equipment on physical damage dealer teams. If you don't use it that's your preference, but I hardly think that you can say "anyone that uses Orders is using a subpar team".

2) IATS adds straight damage to every arrow and stacks with everything, adding damage to every shot until it is used up. I'm not quite sure how you can misunderstand how this skill works.

3) This was a comparison between Glass Arrows and Barrage, it has nothing to do with the first post or other posts in this thread. You are making a lot of assumptions...

As mentioned in the previous post, Barrage deals more total damage than Glass Arrows + PBS even with no buffs at all (assuming 2+ hits from barrage) so arguing about which buffs are used in the comparison is meaningless, you are just looking for a reason to argue. Unless you can clearly explain your point of view and back it up with numbers there is no point in posting.

Khomet Si Netjer · Feb 22, 2010, 08:39 PM // 20:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

Arrow = 22.5 average damage
BarrageBonus = 20 (@15 marks)
GlassArrows = 20 (@15 exp)
PBS = 40 (@15 exp)

2 x (Arrow + BarrageBonus + Buff Damage) = Arrow + GlassArrows + PBS +Buff Damage
2Arrow + 2Barrage + 2 Buff Damage = Arrow + GlassArrows + PBS + Buff Damage
Arrow + Buff Damage + 2Barrage = Glass Arrows + PBS
Buff Damage = Glass Arrows + PBS - Arrow - 2Barrage
Buff Damage = 20 + 40 - 22.5 - 2(20)
Buff Damage = 20 - 22.5
Buff Damage = -2.5

For all you Asuran Scan fans out there... the math changes when using this skill because it is not a buff skill per se, rather it is a hex that increases damage to one target rather than increasing damage on every arrow no matter what the arrow hits. I have worked out the math for Asuran Scan to see where the breakpoint is when using it.

Asuran = 1.75 (+75% damage, max rank)
Arrow = 22.5 average damage
BarrageBonus = 20 (@15 marks)
GlassArrows = 20 (@15 exp)
PBS = 40 (@15 exp)

Asuran(Arrow + BarrageBonus + Buff Damage) + (Arrow + BarrageBonus + Buff Damage) = Asuran(Arrow + GlassArrows + PBS +Buff Damage)

(Arrow + BarrageBonus + Buff Damage) + (Arrow + BarrageBonus + Buff Damage) / Asuran = (Arrow + GlassArrows + PBS + Buff Damage)

(Arrow + BarrageBonus + Buff Damage) / Asuran = (Arrow + GlassArrows + PBS + Buff Damage) - (Arrow + BarrageBonus + Buff Damage)

(Arrow + BarrageBonus + Buff Damage) / Asuran = (GlassArrows + PBS - BarrageBonus)

(Arrow + BarrageBonus + Buff Damage) = Asuran(GlassArrows + PBS - BarrageBonus)

Buff Damage = Asuran(GlassArrows + PBS - BarrageBonus) - (Arrow + BarrageBonus)

Buff Damage = 1.75( 20 + 40 - 20) - (22.5 + 20)
Buff Damage = 1.75(40) - (42.5)
Buff Damage = 27.5

So... with 27.5 points of buff damage on each arrow, glass arrows + point blank shot + asuran scan equals the damage from a two-hit barrage with asuran scan affecting the primary barrage target. If there is less buff damage than that (or only one target) glass arrows wins; if there is more buff damage (and 2+ targets) then barrage wins. Either way the primary target is going to take more damage from Glass Arrows or other +damage preparations, but Barrage may deliver more total damage output under the right conditions.

27.5 on each arrow is not that difficult to achieve... EBSoH + Order of Pain can give you more buff damage than that not to mention other buffs. Food for thought.

Axel Zinfandel · Feb 22, 2010, 10:09 PM // 22:09

Orders is typically used for two reasons

1. Dark Fury to make high adrenal skills (SY!) usable in half the time.
2. OoP's damage in a heavily physical team.

With OoP, it's effectiveness obviously is dependent on the number of Party members dealing Physical damage, and how fast they are attacking. OoP is vastly more effective on sins then it is on warriors, for instance, because they attack faster. Rangers generally attack much slower than any melee character, or spears for that matter, therefor it is less effective on them. One could do the math for what the added, party wide DPS would be per physical member, and how many physical members it would take to make such a build worth it compared to other hero builds, but it's pretty easy to just make an educated guess on that. If you have a ranger, and 1/2 warriors or paras, taking OoP might be less effective then focusing on, say, a N/Rt SoS/weapon spell assist

But all this is a bit off topic.

On topic, I'm curious on the damage difference between the build I posted earlier and a Glass arrows Triple/Double shot build, and maybe a glass arrows ZS/PBS build

I don't exactly have a ranger, oddly enough, to test that XD

AtomicMew · Feb 22, 2010, 10:37 PM // 22:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

1) Orders is standard equipment on physical damage dealer teams. If you don't use it that's your preference, but I hardly think that you can say "anyone that uses Orders is using a subpar team".

Yes I can say that, because it is true. Again, please read Daesu's post. (OR heck, Axel's post above.)

Quote:

2) IATS adds straight damage to every arrow and stacks with everything, adding damage to every shot until it is used up. I'm not quite sure how you can misunderstand how this skill works.

Wrong. IATS does not stack. It adds a set 160 damage over 20 seconds REGARDLESS of how it's applied. Doing the math with IATS triggering on all barrage hits is absurdly illogical.

Quote:

3) This was a comparison between Glass Arrows and Barrage, it has nothing to do with the first post or other posts in this thread. You are making a lot of assumptions...

Not nearly as many assumptions as you are making. SY! is a given because it models REAL gameplay situations. Not the "who cna get teh biggest number" game like you are playing.

Quote:

As mentioned in the previous post, Barrage deals more total damage than Glass Arrows + PBS even with no buffs at all (assuming 2+ hits from barrage) so arguing about which buffs are used in the comparison is meaningless, you are just looking for a reason to argue. Unless you can clearly explain your point of view and back it up with numbers there is no point in posting.

Your math is completely wrong and irrelevant. For starters, you can immediately proc two or more packets with any number of skills and combinations in the time it would take to fire off barrage and recharge.

Why the heck would you compare a situation that is so irrelevant?

Tenebrae · Feb 22, 2010, 11:39 PM // 23:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by trcvrs

Yes I can say that, because it is true. Again, please read Daesu's post. (OR heck, Axel's post above.)

No its not , orders can be played by a D/N , add the Ranger , and other 2 phys H/H wich is not hard. Think before making false assumptions. Anyway , thats not the point , orders work for both type of rangers , lolbarragers and Turrets.

Quote:

Originally Posted by trcvrs

Wrong. IATS does not stack. It adds a set 160 damage over 20 seconds REGARDLESS of how it's applied. Doing the math with IATS triggering on all barrage hits is absurdly illogical.

Wrong. I bet you never used that skill nor read wiki description ( lol @ you saying "ppl dont read" ). I dont even know from where did you get those 20 sec duration because that shout has no duration statement.
Adding it on a Barrage is pretty nonsense , those are temp buffs that can not be mantained so , IATS should be out of the equation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by trcvrs

Not nearly as many assumptions as you are making. SY! is a given because it models REAL gameplay situations. Not the "who cna get teh biggest number" game like you are playing.

SY! is not needed , ever. Not even to mention that a DPS Ranger has no room for it and is not ( and never was ) its task to bring it on a bar. If on REAL gameplay situations you DIE when you dont have SY! up , you are doing something very wrong and yes , this post is about "who can get teh biggest number" , this thread is called "Ranger DPS" lol.

Now , as you are doing on this thread with several ppl that speak the truth , ignore this coment please.

Amy Awien · Feb 23, 2010, 01:21 AM // 01:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

No its not , orders can be played by a D/N , add the Ranger , and other 2 phys H/H wich is not hard. Think before making false assumptions. Anyway , thats not the point , orders work for both type of rangers , lolbarragers and Turrets.

Deasu points out that the AI isn't very good on physicals; melee tends to walk in and out of AoE and rangers don't notice their arrows getting obstructed. But to warrant dedicating a hero to Orders you'd have to make up for the loss of DPS by getting enough physical hitters (somewhere around 3-4 I guess). This adds up to Orders not working quite as well with H&H as with a party of (mostly) human players.

How bad the AI really is is probably a matter of another debate.

Quote:

... I dont even know from where did you get those 20 sec duration ...

It's the recharge that is 20 seconds, so it's 8 attacks every 20 seconds.

Xenomortis · Feb 23, 2010, 01:39 AM // 01:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

No its not , orders can be played by a D/N , add the Ranger , and other 2 phys H/H wich is not hard. Think before making false assumptions. Anyway , thats not the point , orders work for both type of rangers , lolbarragers and Turrets.

The D/N variant is irrelevant. You don't want him running into the frontlines.
Orders is nice when your team has lots of physicals with a high attack frequency. In a H/H setup, it is not ideal. Physical heroes are generally a waste of a slot (Paragons can work but there's better) and henchmen physicals are generally pathetic. A few are nice enough to bring along but not enough so that you can justify orders.
There are other ways to boost your damage without asking a hero to sac 17% of their health repeatedly (a scary task for a hero with a poor sense of energy and health management). It's just a shame that SoH doesn't work for ranged attacks.

On the subject of SY:
No, it isn't necessary. Yes, in theory you can H/H every area of the game in HM without it (at least ones that you can take Henchmen into). However, this will be extremely difficult.
Not bringing Save Yourselves is throwing away one of the main advantages being a physical has.